conflicting messages
23 June 2006 19:09![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
amulUnlike my usual half-witted banter and jibes, this is a serious question about vegetarianism and veganism, although it's possible that I've been unable to extract my serious curiosity from my general habit of disdain. I'd like some honest input and feedback.
I do not understand why so many products are made by companies supporting these two philosophies which pretend to be meat.
It seems to me that if you choose not to eat meat, for whichever of the many reasons people espouse these days, that you should not eat meat. You shouldn't pretend to eat meat. It seems to me that by making Tofurkey sandwiches, and fake gyro platters, you're still supporting the industry which you claim to oppose. You're acknowledging the supremacy of the meat industry by acting like meat is something which can only be sidestepped, not truly avoided.
There are foods out there which are not meat, and which don't pretend to be meat. You don't have to eat things which are meat-substitutes, which seems a lot like talking crap about Microsoft while still using Windows because "it's too strong a market force."
Plus, it seems like cheating to me. If you're going to make a sacrifice for something you believe in, then you should actually have to sacrifice something for that belief. What good is the person who tells his children not to smoke and then sneaks behind the shed for a drag? What morality is there in winning by a technical loophole?
"Oh, I'm not eating a bacon cheeseburger. I'm eating a tofurkey burger with fake bacon and cheese substitute. Because, you know, while I really oppose eating animals, i just like the taste of them too much to stop."
Mahatma Gandhi got an entire country to listen to him by engaging in ritual fasting until people worried about his health enough to listen to him. He didn't sneak a cheeseburger during bedtime and argue, "Well, religious harmony is really important to me, but I'm kind of hungry." The hippies of the 60s didn't hold sit-down protests except when they had class.
In order to affect change, you must sacrifice for your ideals. If you don't change your way of thinking about the world, then how can you change the world? How can you even argue that you have changed?
On top of all of this is the simple fact that meat substitutes taste bad. They taste about as close to the meats they're trying to mimic as Purple Drinks taste like grapes. Saag, on the other hand, tastes exactly like itself and it isn't meat, either.
"Oh, but it's so much harder," people will tell me, "to make tasty, nutritious meals that are not meat or meat-substitutes. It takes more time, it takes more effort."
Well, yeah. That's why meat became so popular in the first place, and to willfully ignore that while protesting it seems a charlatan's trick. it seems like avoiding the real issue.
I agree that meat has far too much prevalence in our society. I agree that there are many products which use animal byproducts when they don't have to. I also agree that I'd like my food to be made out of, you know, food.
But I think that if you're going to stop eating meat, then you should stop eating meat. if you think meat is something our culture can do without, if you think that we need to, as vegans are so fond of saying, "change our traditions," then how about we start with yours? How about you try to give up your dependance on meat-centric meal planning, give up trying to eat things with Egg Substitutes and Cheese Substitutes and Fake Meat Patties and actually try to stop eating the stuff?
If you're going to make a sacrifice, then it should cost you something. I don't see how you can argue any different.
I do not understand why so many products are made by companies supporting these two philosophies which pretend to be meat.
It seems to me that if you choose not to eat meat, for whichever of the many reasons people espouse these days, that you should not eat meat. You shouldn't pretend to eat meat. It seems to me that by making Tofurkey sandwiches, and fake gyro platters, you're still supporting the industry which you claim to oppose. You're acknowledging the supremacy of the meat industry by acting like meat is something which can only be sidestepped, not truly avoided.
There are foods out there which are not meat, and which don't pretend to be meat. You don't have to eat things which are meat-substitutes, which seems a lot like talking crap about Microsoft while still using Windows because "it's too strong a market force."
Plus, it seems like cheating to me. If you're going to make a sacrifice for something you believe in, then you should actually have to sacrifice something for that belief. What good is the person who tells his children not to smoke and then sneaks behind the shed for a drag? What morality is there in winning by a technical loophole?
"Oh, I'm not eating a bacon cheeseburger. I'm eating a tofurkey burger with fake bacon and cheese substitute. Because, you know, while I really oppose eating animals, i just like the taste of them too much to stop."
Mahatma Gandhi got an entire country to listen to him by engaging in ritual fasting until people worried about his health enough to listen to him. He didn't sneak a cheeseburger during bedtime and argue, "Well, religious harmony is really important to me, but I'm kind of hungry." The hippies of the 60s didn't hold sit-down protests except when they had class.
In order to affect change, you must sacrifice for your ideals. If you don't change your way of thinking about the world, then how can you change the world? How can you even argue that you have changed?
On top of all of this is the simple fact that meat substitutes taste bad. They taste about as close to the meats they're trying to mimic as Purple Drinks taste like grapes. Saag, on the other hand, tastes exactly like itself and it isn't meat, either.
"Oh, but it's so much harder," people will tell me, "to make tasty, nutritious meals that are not meat or meat-substitutes. It takes more time, it takes more effort."
Well, yeah. That's why meat became so popular in the first place, and to willfully ignore that while protesting it seems a charlatan's trick. it seems like avoiding the real issue.
I agree that meat has far too much prevalence in our society. I agree that there are many products which use animal byproducts when they don't have to. I also agree that I'd like my food to be made out of, you know, food.
But I think that if you're going to stop eating meat, then you should stop eating meat. if you think meat is something our culture can do without, if you think that we need to, as vegans are so fond of saying, "change our traditions," then how about we start with yours? How about you try to give up your dependance on meat-centric meal planning, give up trying to eat things with Egg Substitutes and Cheese Substitutes and Fake Meat Patties and actually try to stop eating the stuff?
If you're going to make a sacrifice, then it should cost you something. I don't see how you can argue any different.
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no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 00:47 (UTC)uhhh, because it's not a sacrifice. seriously.
eating a meat analog is nothing like eating an animal... there is no cheating in this!!! some veg*ns might get squicked out if something resembles meat/dairy, but that is their business.
personally, i have been vegetarian and vegan for so long that i do not remember what meat/dairy taste like! what these analogs provide me with is a variety of textures and flavors and the ability to recreate some comfort food (which is a picture in my mind, basically).
most people who become vegan or vegetarian do so to stop the suffering of animals. not because they don't like the taste of meat/dairy.... in general, we don't like the INDUSTRIES and the mindset that says that we should cause something else suffering and pain. therefore, as long as we do not support this culture of cruelty: it's okay.
i want people to find it easy to switch to vegan or vegetarian and therefore i want meat and dairy analogs to exist. u.s. culture is very meat/dairy heavy and people are tied to their cultural connections. therefore having meat analogs, or being like "tofu, mushrooms,seitan, whatever is a good replacement for meat on that dish" is a wonderful wonderful thing because it allows people to eat food they recognize while being cruel free. you should not underestimate how important cultural background is.
meat is not popular because it is convenient: it's almost always in history been a status symbol, only something the rich can afford (there's exceptions, but they are rare... mountainous countries for example).
meat analogs have also been around for at least 1500 years, when a chinese emperor became buddhist and vegetarian and instructed all his chefs to recreate things vegetarian style.
i agree that people should not eat so much processed foods (which is where the convenience comes in). but that's people in general, not just veg*ns. people who are veg*n are not ascetics!
now i'm going to eat my bbq seitan w/ peppers and then construct my awesome key lime pie!
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 00:54 (UTC)no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 01:34 (UTC)Your comment about "comfort foods" is very central to my current questions. This is precisely what I mean about sacrifice. I feel like if you're going to say that you shouldn't eat, say, chicken nuggets, then you should be prepared to give up eating them whole cloth. You shouldn't try to worm your way out of that with artificially chicken-flavored tofu nuggets.
I'm very aware of the importance of the cultural paradigm which makes this transition so hard for many people. It was the thought that started my mind churning to the point where this post was made. I grew up eating Indian food, though, so for me it's very easy to go through an entire meal without even knowing if I ate meat or not. This outsider perspective, so to speak, is why I challenge the notion of needing meat-like-patties between slices of bread (which I differentiate from things like Garden Patties, which make no attempt to mimic meat while still providing an analogous food experience).
I also acknowledge that meat, historically, was a status symbol, I don't feel that argument holds true anymore. I feel that most people think that throwing a couple of chicken legs in the oven is easier than say, making Tofu Pad Thai, and that this convienence is what drives the current domination of our eating habits. It seems easier to satisfy nutritional requirements through meat as well, as I know of a number of n00b vegans who have had nutritional problems during the transition. Part of that is culture, obviously, we're not taught what vegetables make up a complete balanced meal. But part of it is also market economics, as it's easier to transport frozen meat without losing saleable qualities.
I think the Chinese emperor thing is outside the scope of my question. In most chinese food, the meat constitutes a minor portion of the meal and can easily be swapped out (although, now that I think about it, I do feel the same sort of distaste for places like Zen Garden in Pittsburgh, which describes their entire menu by what meat each dish is mimicking).
You make a lot of good points, and I suspect that I'm going to reply to your comment again when I have time to process it more fully.
I've been talking about this stuff with (f)AD for a while. Meat has a certain cultural importance to me that I'm unwilling to give up, but I am interested in eating less chemically treated food. The two phrases that I keep saying are, "I want my food to be made out of food," and "I think that if you're going to give up meat, you should actually give it up." Conscious consumerism, she's refered to it as. Much like she wonders if she would have had more support had she chosen abortion over adoption, I feel like there aren't many resources I can find that would help me learn more about choosing my food more carefully without also trying to indoctrinate me into a philosophy I don't agree with (not just veg*ns, but also the Indians I've talked to who spent the entire excursion telling me that I was a Bad Hindu because I like Indian food, but don't participate in Indian culture).
I'm particularly glad that you commented (I didn't even know you still read my LJ), because I've always heard good things about your eating/culinary habits. About an hour or so before I finally posted, I was actually thinking that if you were still in Chicago, I could probably have asked you to go shopping with me on occassion, that you are one of the few people I think would have been willing to help me learn without preaching to me, unlike the few people I've already approached.
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 02:23 (UTC)swap out animals for humans there and you got me. while some people it is more of something they do feel like they are making a bit of a sacrifice, for me it really isn't a sacrifice. it's just not something i would want. trust me on this.
i also like the car analogy below. i will never own a car. this is no sacrifice for me.
also making subsititues *is* exploring culinary range. i dare you to find someone who has a wider range of cuisine types and tastes in and out of the kitchen than i. there is no value in their product for me; however, that doesn't mean there is no value in making alternatives to that product available so people can opt out of the cruelty part.
there is no "worming my way out" by eating fake chicken nuggets. they're vegan, i'm vegan. they're not healthy, but i don't eat healthily 100% of the time. those are two different things that i think you're confusing.
this is going to be a bit overwraught, but: having rape fantasies is not at all the same thing as wanting to be raped. eating fake meat is not the same as eating meat.
when you buy fake meat stuff you are opting out. you are putting your money into things that are not meat creating more of a demand for those things and less of a demand for meat. that is a good thing (to me).
when i realized i thought eating meat was wrong i had grown up eating kraft mac and cheese, taco bell, little ceasars, mcdonalds, etc. So instead I had subway w/ no meat, taco bell bean burritos, french fries, nachos, etc. 5 years later, after i discover things such as vegetables and other non- "american" cuisines, i became vegan. so i was one of those people who wasn't too healthy going in, but you learn how to cook and then become amazing or you shell out more money for prepackaged veg stuff. now i'm a food snob, but not everyone is and not everyone has the skills to cook the way i do. it's really easy to eat healthily and veg*n and not w/ much cooking time, but we aren't taught stuff, like you said... but that's not the veg*n's fault.
making tofu pad thai is not like throwing a couple chicken legs in... you are comparing apples and oranges. it's like making chicken pad thai... the equivalant would to throw some tofu and veggies in the oven totally uncut or anything... which is both easy and yummy!
don't try to hold up veg*ns to any higher standard than anyone else (except for them adhering to their beliefs of not eating animals and/or animal products). veg*ns are a good cross-section of the populace. not all are freaks or really counter cultural by any means. not all want to be healthy.
a lot of people want to not be so conspicuous about their beliefs in their day to day life and things like meat analogs help them. goodness knows how many questions i get sometimes, but sometimes even i want to be left alone. i don't want to always have to defend being vegan, being queer, wearing all black, liking country music, not drinking/smoking, etc. sometimes we just want to be.
occassionally fitting in with whomever is around you is something we all do, some more or less. meat analogues are something that not only makes veg*nism more palatable to the mainstream (yes, i want veg*nism to "sell out" (although not in the giving up one's beliefs way)) but just help us leave more "normal" lives (whatever that is) when we want to.
i don't even like prepackaged meat subs all that much (although made from scratch meat subs are usually always divine), but i can't stress to you enough how this is not a real concern or question for veg*ns.
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 03:02 (UTC)By analogy then...
If I were to stop being a cannibal, because I felt it was wrong to eat humans, but made up dishes that looked like my favorite cooked human recipes (and tasted like them), then that would be the same as a vegetarian/vegan who made up dishes that look/taste like meat dishes.
Assuming one is vegetarian/vegan for moral reasons and not health reasons, of course.
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 05:06 (UTC)no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 05:12 (UTC)now giving up all sweets, black clothes, or books... well, those would be sacrifices to me.
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 11:50 (UTC)no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 14:18 (UTC)seriously, no sacrifice *for me*.
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 07:06 (UTC)Not to completely sidetrack this, but, uh, who are you?
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 10:01 (UTC)no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 07:12 (UTC)It's becoming startlingly clear to me through our conversation that I have no understanding of the veg*ns [ (f)AD just explained what the * means a few days ago ] who I admire for their style of conscientious consumerism.
You make a lot of good points, again, far too many for me to fully digest even in the few days I've given myself to do so.
Right now, the primary thought in my mind is that, clearly, I've been asking the wrong sort of people these questions up until now, and that explains a great deal of the frustration that I've been having.
I'd like to ask for permission to email you privately about specific culinary attempts I'll be making in the future, and for links & resources (or maybe even direct answers) about understanding ingredient labels.
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 16:19 (UTC)also, sorry i forgot to explain the veg*n thing... (it's when you want to say vegan and vegetarian and don't want to say those over and over)
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 18:12 (UTC)That's a really, really thin analogy, unless he used to eat humans, and live in a culture where most dishes were made from people.
Seriously, not being able to eat entrees in 90% of American restaurants is a HUGE sacrifice, at least for most people
to your actual question
Date: 24 Jun 2006 02:45 (UTC)however, one thing you can bring from it is that the lower you eat on the food chain the more sustainable it is. (although be careful about seafood due to mercury... you can look at this (http://www.wcs.org/gofish) which should help inform you what is safe or not... but then again, thinking low on the food chain helps there as well).
think of joining a csa or going to the farmer's market (http://www.supernaturale.com/articles.html?id=161) to get organic, local veggies. buying locally is equally important (perhaps more so) than buying organic. csa's and farmer's markets will help you do that... those places will also have organic and more humane cheese and meat vendors usually.
if you are concerned about healthy, try not to eat at restaurants a lot because they add a lot of salt and fat to their food to make it super yummy. also making sure you eat a lot of raw food and not just cooked food is also good for you.
while i wish everyone could go vegan or at least vegetarian, i realize that's not going to happen since for most people it's not wrong to do so ( though there are lots of good environmental reasons too (http://www.earthsave.org/environment/foodchoices.htm)... also a study is going to come out soon that says giving up meat is one of the best ways to reduce your environmental footprint (http://www.onedayvancouver.ca/news.php?type=1&id=116)... this is not a preaching thing, but just some reasons it's good besides the animal ethics part of it).
Re: to your actual question
Date: 26 Jun 2006 07:16 (UTC)Could you recommend some places to check out? I don't know how long you were living in Edgewater before you moved, but I'm sure you must know some places. The phrase "humane cheese" is something I'm particularly interested in, although for tangential reasons.
Re: to your actual question
Date: 26 Jun 2006 16:24 (UTC)couple of thoughts there.
a few thoughts
Date: 24 Jun 2006 00:52 (UTC)i'd rather eat tofu or seitan or gluten than "veggie-pork" or whatever the hell else they like to call it. sp lets call a patty of dead cow muscle, "a cow flesh patty" and processed soy protien "soy protein patty". problem with this is that we are dealing with simplicity in communication and even if it is more honest to call a thing what it is, it is more simple (and better marketing) to call it what people easily identify and like to hear.
also i don't see not eating meat as a sacrifice. i don't see why you "give up" anything any more than some one who chooses not to eat spinach "gives up" anything. as a parallel i don't see not driving a car as a "sacrifice". it's a choice with various tradeoffs on convenience and economy for example.
Re: a few thoughts
Date: 24 Jun 2006 01:41 (UTC)I will say that I think that doing something against the cultural norm, that requiring your ethical standards be held to in the face of convienence (eg, not eating at a Fast Food burger joint no matter how late you are) counts as sacrifice. When I encounter these inconvienences, the person usually says that they won't eat there because "I don't eat meat." They don't say, "I don't want a burger," or "I don't like any of their food." They describe their unwillingness to eat in ethical standards. I think that makes it fair to call that a moral sacrifice.
I don't eat at McDonald's because I don't like the taste of their food, and I am dubious as to whether it can even be called "food." That's a question of dietary preference, not of moral sacrifice, which I think it would be if I said that I didn't eat there because I don't eat meat.
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 03:54 (UTC)Anyway, I've tried a few meat substitutes, and they don't taste too bad. (At least not to me. Keep in mind my omnivorous nature, though.) Sometimes it is also in the way that they are prepared. For example, you really don't want to eat tofu plain -- it's next to flavorless. But marinate it, or spice it, and it can be wonderful stuff. (Case in point: hot and sour soup. Heavenly!)
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 07:18 (UTC)At any rate, see my comments to the thousand other people who responded for the rest of your comment.
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 05:03 (UTC)Regarding the meat-centric diet: now (knowing more about food & health), I tend to look at it as protein-centric--or, at least, it was intended to be a protein-centric diet before fastfood took over. In my family, meat had always been the "filling" part of the meal; veggies were thrown in as extras, side dishes. When I started learning to cook for myself, meal planning became more about finding things that were filling and healthy, not finding substitutes for meat. It's the protein that is necessary, and this can be found in things like tofu, seitan, tempeh, etc.
As you know, I'm not particularly fond of most meat-analogs (soy "burgers," etc.) but there are certain dishes that I enjoy that can easily use meat substitutes. I don't see anything wrong in making a gyro with seitan strips instead of lamb. It's still a gyro because of the way it's made, not because of what's in it. Same with veggie burgers or veggie "cold cuts" or grilled soycheez. I try to specify veggieburger instead of just burger, too, because I think that makes an effective statement about what I am choosing to consume.
I also mentioned before that I don't consider veganism to be a sacrifice--I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything because I don't eat meat or dairy products. Since going vegan, I've never once had, for example, an overwhelming desire for steak. Like vicissitude (http://vicissitude.livejournal.com) said, choosing to give up meat is similar to choosing to give up spinach--to me, it's a conscious decision. Perhaps it's the remnants of Catholicism in me, but I've always had this idea that a true sacrifice involves giving up something that is difficult and often painful to go without in order to "do the right thing." Giving up meat isn't difficult; it just seemed, after some deliberation, to be the sensible thing to do.
Finally--no veg*n's ever denied that animal products taste or look good. It's not about taste; it's about morality, or health, or environmental concerns--a number of things. I still see nothing wrong with saying, "hey, I think it's bad to kill a cow for food, but hamburgers still taste good so let's make an alternative that tastes just as good but harms no living thing." Seems like everyone involved wins out.
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 07:40 (UTC)You say that it isn't difficult to switch, and yet I've told you three or four times that I find your current diet very worrying. In fact, concern over your diet (that is, the diet you described to me while you were living in Athens during the last trimester) & an interest in providing you healthier alternatives is what sparked this whole train of thought which lead to this post, back before you got to Chicago. It has been difficult for you, both due to finances and eating habits, and that's why I've been using the term.
Regarding gyros, I thought that I had made it clear that I found the seitan gyro very tasty, and that my issue was with the way it was presented on the menu. Disdaining meat substitutes (which I'm now differentiating from meat analogs) as I do, I'd prefer to know how what how the seitan was prepared, rather than simply that it was being used as a substitute for lamb. Again, I come from a background of vegetarianism that eschews both meat substitutes and meat analogs, so I don't really have an empathetic understanding of why you'd choose to go with analogs, given the other options out there. On the other hand, my eating habits are predicated on having someone whose primary job is to spend 4-5 hours a day cooking for me, which is clearly not feasible.
For me, it goes back to the point about being stuck in the middle between all the extremists. The only people who have talked to me about this sort of stuff have done so in an off-putting manner, and my response to their attitude seems to have driven off those whom I feel would provide me with insight of value.
Again, I have no interest in giving up meat in my diet, for the various reasons we've already discussed. On the other hand, I would like my food to be made out of food. And, irritatingly, after our discussion about the dairy industry, I'd prefer at least most of my cheese to come from more humane sources.
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 22:32 (UTC)I think this particular context changed my mind. *shrug* But I change quickly, and I don't remember what I said before.
You say that it isn't difficult to switch, and yet I've told you three or four times that I find your current diet very worrying
As far as I can tell, the only problem with my current diet is that I can eat perfectly healthfully until I run out of money, after which point I have to start skipping meals. I mean, now that I have a steady income I can afford to spend $80/2 weeks at the grocery store 'cause my only major expenses will be rent and my medical billz (which are almost paid). I felt incredibly healthy during my last trimester, especially while I was keeping close track of my iron count and had a lot of money to throw around for good food...I don't really understand what concerned you...except maybe my lack of a regular eating schedule, but I've been doing the "eat when my body tells me I'm hungry" thing for at least a year now, so long as funds are available.
meat substitutes (which I'm now differentiating from meat analogs) as I do,
what's the difference to you? just so I can keep it straight...
I'd prefer to know how what how the seitan was prepared, rather than simply that it was being used as a substitute for lamb.
Chicago Diner's menu usually does that, though--I thought it was all, "stir-fry seitan and cucumber tzetziki (sp!) sauce." They do have the "chikin'-flavored" dishes etc., but most of their descriptions are about how awesome the tofu is, not how much it tastes like beef... which it doesn't anyway.
Another view
Date: 24 Jun 2006 05:31 (UTC)To begin with, I think very few vegetarians/vegans will argue that meat doesn't have a favorable taste to those who eat it. Becoming vege/vegan because "meat tastes bad" just doesn't hold any gravity. Taking this into consideration, it's more than understandable that those who don't eat animal products might still desire a similar taste- there's nothing unethical about savory food. To call it "vege pork," "vege beef," etc. could be said to advance the notion that exploiting animals for food is okay; that I will concede, but the error lies in the naming, not in the food or taste itself.
As for lauding M.K. Gandhi, I think you should be wary who you use as an example of not cheating: Gandhi stated many times as a part of Satyagraha that anyone could be beaten by love and non-violent resistence. During WWII, however, he said that Hitler could not be stopped by satyagraha, and that Jews should all simply die as martyrs instead of trying to reform the nazis. Cheating? You tell me.
Gandhi was a tremendous civil servant and a wonderful human being, but even he had his shortcomings. (Just for the record, Gandhi was also a vegetarian.) My point in illustrating this is that no one is flawless. But, to succumb to the taste of something by consuming a substitute that is similar but is NOT made of animals is not cheating. Vegetarians who sometimes eat fish and chicken, and vegans who occasionally dabble in cheese are the cheaters.
This is not to say that I favor vegan substitutes for meat- I truly do prefer products, as you mentioned, like Garden Burger and seitan, which taste less like meat and more like savory vegetable alternatives. If I could, I'd eat nothing but raw fruits, veges, grains, and nuts.
Also, in response to your mention of sacrifice, I see things in a reversed light: I see veganism as a sustainable, easy life and omnivorousness as a sacrifice. I say this because when I first became vegetarian, and then vegan, I lost 60 pounds (250 to 190), became much healthier, and I now know that I'm eating without causing suffering to any other creatures or to the environment. For what might be thought of as sacrificing some things I used to eat, I gained health, a clear conscience, I preserve lives, and I preserve the natural world. I think the "sacrifice" here is far outweighed by the benefits.
Conversely, for those who eat animal products, I think they're not only sacrificing their bodily health, but they're also sacrificing the lives and content of other beings, and they're sacrificing the well-being of fields, ground-water, rivers, and oceans, all in exchange for a comforting taste. I ask you, does the sacrifice here outweigh the benefits?
I'm not asking you to become vegetarian/vegan, but I do wish you'd be less hostile toward those who are trying to ease the suffering of others in this world. I'll end by saying that I'm happy to continue this discussion if you're interested- I can go into more depth about the arguments underlying vegetarianism/veganism, and you can tell me more about why you're unsure of them.
Also, if you'd like, I met an awesome guy named Praveen the other day who is a Hindu from India who also happens to be vegetarian. Maybe he can offer you a different perspective than I since you both share a common religious and cultural background.
The offer stands, man, it's up to you. Cheers.
Re: Another view
Date: 24 Jun 2006 08:45 (UTC)-I had hoped that I had made it clear that my hostility towards vegans comes not from what they're actually doing, but the way that most of those I've met have presented what they're doing. You, specifically, seem to have a really grating tone of moral superiority every time the topic comes up which I'm so bored with, but that may just be may just be the emotional context which I usually struggle with around you. Either way, I don't think it would be helpful to discuss this with you, although I appreciate the offer.
-I was a vegetarian up until my teens. Eating meat was a choice I made, with quite a bit of thought behind it. If I needed to talk to a Hindu about this, I would talk to my parents, or any of my in-culture friends. I chose to present the question here. Again, I appreciate the effort, but I rarely ask serious questions like this one without carefully choosing the forum in which I wish to discuss them (clearly, this is not the case in times of emotional stress :)
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 03:46 (UTC)Re: Another view
Date: 24 Jun 2006 11:55 (UTC)no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 03:41 (UTC)no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 07:00 (UTC)*sigh* This is a distraction, and I'm letting myself use it to avoid the actual subject at hand.
no subject
Date: 3 Jul 2006 20:42 (UTC)no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 05:58 (UTC)Should people who've given up drinking be betraying their ideals if they order a virgin dacquiri or a virgin mary?
It seems that your complaint is that they don't sacrifice enough, that they aren't extreme enough in their possibly moral or ethical stand but I don't see where you get to judge how extreme they should be. I mean you seem one step short of pushing them towards some violent activism.
Though a counter-argument might be if they are really against the meat industry they should support every effort to come up with meat substitutes in order to allow people not so ethically inclined to join them in not eating meat and to ease new vegetarians and vegans into a non meat and dairy centric diet.
Although for the sake of full disclosure, I do partially own a vegan restaurant. :) Our debates are more about 'Is sperm an animal by product? Are vegan required to spit and not swallow' and things of that nature.
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 07:44 (UTC)At any rate, it's become clear that I don't understand the reasoning of those whose behavior I'd like to learn more about come form.
Food!
Date: 24 Jun 2006 06:34 (UTC)no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 07:35 (UTC)Admittedly, it's kind of creepy when a brand like Veat--hahaha--puts their tofu in a mold that looks like half of an actual chicken...but there are plenty of people who are not in it for ethics...GASP! THE HORROR! ...and I am finding processed foods to be ickier than I did before I started eating more raw/organic foodstuffs.
Here's an analogy for you: Quit smoking cold turkey--pun intended--right this very second.
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 07:51 (UTC)Another example, I'd never heard of seitan until recently, and wasn't interested in trying it when the menu described it as a meat substitute. Nor did I find the idea any more appealing when the menu described it's historical signifance and scientific composition. But when (f)AD said, "Hey, this tastes pretty good, try some," that's when I took a bite. It's the same reason I never order anything described as "marinated chicken." Marinated in what, dammit? How am I supposed to know what it tastes like?
Again, I don't think I can articulate my position as clearly as I could before, but hopefully you get the idea.
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 11:41 (UTC)1) The Meat Industry
I don't see how eating meat-like veggie products supports the meat industry. In fact, it's supporting it's direct competition. No animals were harmed in the making of a tofu burger and if that's your primary concern, it's a happy alternative. The meat industry doesn't get your money, or your business. Most vegetarians I've met object to the direct suffering. If meat packing plants stopped production and started making tofu that looked and tasted exactly like chicken? They'd be thrilled. The idea that eating meat substitutes supports the meat industry seems like a very tenuous argument to me. It's like the time I was dating a guy that asked "If lesbians don't like to have sex with men, why to they like penis-shaped sex toys?" I almost hit him.
1)Sacrifice
It sounds like you're discussing Making a Point versus a simple lifestyle choice. Claiming every moral choice demands a sacrifice screams "martyr complex" to me. If someone goes on an on about Their Sacrifice, then yeah, I expect to see some sacrificing, but that isn't inherent to vegetarianism.
Aside from that, being a vegetarian has it's difficult moments:
Purchasing and fitting-in time to cook your own Tofurkey amid the main Thanksgiving prep.
Having to be the pain in the ass when choosing a restaurant for dinner unless you want plain spaghetti.
Informing the hosts of a dinner party of your eating habits while worrying about being demanding.
Rarely splitting a pizza.
Accidentally getting food with meat in it, your fault or the business.
"Helpful" people trying to talk you into trying meat again.
Being "that guy" to your friends and family. While they like you, meals are easier when you're not involved.
3) Faux meat sucks.
Not true at all. James and I have a pretty meat-centric household and we still buy some meat substitutes because we like them. I like Morningstar farms fake bacon better than real bacon. It's baconish flavor without the greasiness and over crisping. We like Quorn. It's healthy, tasty and fun to say. Spicy black bean "burgers" were always a favorite of mine as are portobella mushroom burgers. Which despite being a slab of marinated vegetable, portabella mushrooms are some of the most burger-like things you can get. Finally one problem vegetarians, particularly new vegetarians, frequently have is getting enough protein. Meat substitutes are a handy way to do that without an endless existence alternating tofu and beans.
This post really strikes me as you not understanding why people don't do things the way you think they should, regardless of their own beliefs. *You* think giving something up requires a consistent clear-cut sacrifice more so than just giving up that specific thing itself. *You* don't like the taste of meat substitutes, so how can anyone like them? I guess the simple answer would be because not all vegetarians are you. I'm probably coming off a lot more confrontational than I intend and for that I apologize. Try to think of this as adamant as opposed to angry.
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 11:45 (UTC)no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 08:13 (UTC)Since you number your points, I'll try to do the same.
1) The Meat Industry
Frankly, this entire sub-thread has become a giant distraction to me, and I'd just as soon drop it. The key point here is that I don't understand the reasoning behind the choices of people whom I respect, and have therefore made the mistake of assuming them to have the same reasons as the people whose attitudes I find disdainful. This seems to have created a cycle whereby those who might tell me things I'd find valuable in this sort of discussion probably became less likely to talk to me about it.
2) Sacrifice
Everybody seems really up in arms over that term, and apparently I came across seeming to mean it in a much more melodramatic way than I intended. See my response to Erin (http://amul.livejournal.com/333366.html?thread=942646#t942646) about what I was trying to say.
(side tangent:
Being "that guy" to your friends and family. While they like you, meals are easier when you're not involved.
This is the point at which my perspective differs. My issue with "that guy" isn't that he's harder to cook for, it's that he's less inclined to trust me when I say, "it's good, and you can eat it." Oh no, he makes me pull out the recipe book and tell him every damn thing that's in it. Why can't he just trust that I'll be considerate of his choices?
Probably because I'm always whining about how he'll never get to try any of the recipes I'm really good at.
)
3) Faux meat sucks
I tried to be clear that I was excluding things like Spicy Black Bean Burgers from this point. The fake bacon is part of it, though. After what everbody else has already said, I guess I'm willing to concede that it's a little Double Plus UnGood of me, but I still think that it'd be easier to throw out all your preconcieved notion and learn a new system whole cloth than to try to figure out analog substitutes for every little thing.
I think it's the Indian Food background, really. It's not the only culture that has a predominantly vegetarian cusine, and these cusines all have breakfasts, lunches and dinners. Why not just learn a whole new language rather than constantly trying to find some new way to say "fuck" that won't get bleeped out by the censors?
4) Your post script
Yes, it's become very clear that I don't understand the logic behind the choices I'm interested in discussing, and that I've made the mistake of lumping them into the same category as those people who've made choices with the same external symptoms.
Really, though, that's why I asked in a public forum.
another long-winded vegetarian enters the fray
Date: 26 Jun 2006 16:10 (UTC)You may not remember it, but early on after we first started talking (yeah, yeah, a millennia ago as far as what has happened since) you asked me about my vegetarian habits then proceeded to tell me that you resented that someone who you were cooking for would give you parameters according to their issues. When someone came to YOUR house, you didn't want them telling you how to live/cook/etc. I decided then and there that I could never eat your cooking because your statement meant I couldn't trust you to respect MY choices, whether I was at your house or my own. Asking what is in something isn't by definition disrespectful. You've certainly come a ways since then, but there's a fragment of that still echoing to me in this discussion.
I realize you now regret the choice of "sacrifice" in your post for the stir it's caused, and with good reason. It speaks more to your (perceived) attitude than anything else you said afterward. Also, it's too easy to poke in response to it, so I won't bother.
No one should poke someone else's moral structure if it isn't hurting them. You chastising vegetarians for inconsistencies is in many ways not much different than Hindus hassling you that you can't be Hindu if you don't marry a Hindu girl, join the temple, etc. We are all subsets of the larger, un-accepting culture and not a one of us should play "holier than thou". If too many vegs have preached at you, remember that you have, perhaps inadvertently (at least in my case) preached critically at them. None of us is of such perfect moral fiber that we lack any flaws in our logic structure. In college I finally became completely vegetarian when my roommate asked me (with zero judgment in her voice) "If you know it is wrong, why do you do it?" and so I didn't eat meat again. It was that simple for me. To me, it is wrong, therefore I will not participate in as much as I am able. What you do is your business, from what you eat to who you sleep with. It's all the same issue to me.
For my part, it comes from living as simply as I can. Meat is not something I want or need. It is something I find distasteful in it's cultural/social/environmental implication IN THE MANNER IT IS USUALLY OFFERED. That is a vital point, sorry for the all caps though. It has to do with eating real food. I honestly have no great issue with truly free-range meat (though it is difficult to prove unless the animal lived free and was hunted and killed quickly). I tweaked out a few people by saying that if I died young and healthy, I would prefer to be eaten than to be buried. Don't waste good stuff. I respect meat eaters who would in fact kill their own food. I couldn't and see no reason that I should pay someone else to do my killing for me. Those are just some of the reasons. I have little issue that other cultures eat bugs, cats, dogs and whatnot. It is what is culturally appropriate for them, and I have little stomach for any of it. Ditto for eating all parts of the animal. If you're grossed out by the liver, why would you eat the ass?
I was drawn to Indian food when I was in high school in part because it was so yummy and bonus: without being meat. So I started to learn to cook, and it all grew from there. My family is very meat'n'potatoes, so it is useful to have analogs around in order to deal with them and not be a social liability. Once, and ONLY once, my father made a disparaging remark about tofu and I told him I would not cook for him if he insulted what I made. He never did again because I'm a better cook than he is.
That's enough random blathering. Hope it shed some additional light. All vegs are not the same, just like any other subgroup.
Re: another long-winded vegetarian enters the fray
Date: 4 Jul 2006 00:53 (UTC)You may not remember it, but early on after we first started talking
Um, yes, I remember it quite well. It had more impact on me than the rest of the conversation, which was pretty major in my life as well. I've thought about that conversation quite often over the last few years, and for a long time whenever Christine and I would get sick of arguing, we'd talk about what you said.
I liked you, wanted to cook for you, but somehow my attitude towards the world prevented that from ever happening.
It was one of the reasons why I've spent the last few years trying to make all the changes I've been working towards.
Re: another long-winded vegetarian enters the fray
Date: 4 Jul 2006 02:26 (UTC)When you come back to balance (or something close to it), please elaborate.
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 22:08 (UTC)It's not a matter of trust or an insult to someone's cooking. I check labels and boxes and recipes myself because, in my experience, most non-veg*ns and non-healthfreaks don't know that things like monoglycerides or sodium stearol lactylate are made of animal byproducts, and aren't aware that seemingly-veg*n-safe foods like white bread and some brands of peanut butter (absurdly enough, IMO) contain animal-derived ingredients that strict vegans avoid.
So far you're the only person who's eaten with me and shown any sort of interest in learning what food is made of. My parents, for example, didn't understand why I couldn't eat their insta-mashed potatoes and "chicken-flavored" stuffing from the box. I always check labels myself unless I'm cooking with another vegan.
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 18:10 (UTC)And there's a huge gulf between "vegetarian for health reasons" and "vegetarian for fluffy reasons", in general, and especially on topics like this one.
no subject
Date: 3 Jul 2006 21:11 (UTC)