conflicting messages
23 June 2006 19:09![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
amulUnlike my usual half-witted banter and jibes, this is a serious question about vegetarianism and veganism, although it's possible that I've been unable to extract my serious curiosity from my general habit of disdain. I'd like some honest input and feedback.
I do not understand why so many products are made by companies supporting these two philosophies which pretend to be meat.
It seems to me that if you choose not to eat meat, for whichever of the many reasons people espouse these days, that you should not eat meat. You shouldn't pretend to eat meat. It seems to me that by making Tofurkey sandwiches, and fake gyro platters, you're still supporting the industry which you claim to oppose. You're acknowledging the supremacy of the meat industry by acting like meat is something which can only be sidestepped, not truly avoided.
There are foods out there which are not meat, and which don't pretend to be meat. You don't have to eat things which are meat-substitutes, which seems a lot like talking crap about Microsoft while still using Windows because "it's too strong a market force."
Plus, it seems like cheating to me. If you're going to make a sacrifice for something you believe in, then you should actually have to sacrifice something for that belief. What good is the person who tells his children not to smoke and then sneaks behind the shed for a drag? What morality is there in winning by a technical loophole?
"Oh, I'm not eating a bacon cheeseburger. I'm eating a tofurkey burger with fake bacon and cheese substitute. Because, you know, while I really oppose eating animals, i just like the taste of them too much to stop."
Mahatma Gandhi got an entire country to listen to him by engaging in ritual fasting until people worried about his health enough to listen to him. He didn't sneak a cheeseburger during bedtime and argue, "Well, religious harmony is really important to me, but I'm kind of hungry." The hippies of the 60s didn't hold sit-down protests except when they had class.
In order to affect change, you must sacrifice for your ideals. If you don't change your way of thinking about the world, then how can you change the world? How can you even argue that you have changed?
On top of all of this is the simple fact that meat substitutes taste bad. They taste about as close to the meats they're trying to mimic as Purple Drinks taste like grapes. Saag, on the other hand, tastes exactly like itself and it isn't meat, either.
"Oh, but it's so much harder," people will tell me, "to make tasty, nutritious meals that are not meat or meat-substitutes. It takes more time, it takes more effort."
Well, yeah. That's why meat became so popular in the first place, and to willfully ignore that while protesting it seems a charlatan's trick. it seems like avoiding the real issue.
I agree that meat has far too much prevalence in our society. I agree that there are many products which use animal byproducts when they don't have to. I also agree that I'd like my food to be made out of, you know, food.
But I think that if you're going to stop eating meat, then you should stop eating meat. if you think meat is something our culture can do without, if you think that we need to, as vegans are so fond of saying, "change our traditions," then how about we start with yours? How about you try to give up your dependance on meat-centric meal planning, give up trying to eat things with Egg Substitutes and Cheese Substitutes and Fake Meat Patties and actually try to stop eating the stuff?
If you're going to make a sacrifice, then it should cost you something. I don't see how you can argue any different.
I do not understand why so many products are made by companies supporting these two philosophies which pretend to be meat.
It seems to me that if you choose not to eat meat, for whichever of the many reasons people espouse these days, that you should not eat meat. You shouldn't pretend to eat meat. It seems to me that by making Tofurkey sandwiches, and fake gyro platters, you're still supporting the industry which you claim to oppose. You're acknowledging the supremacy of the meat industry by acting like meat is something which can only be sidestepped, not truly avoided.
There are foods out there which are not meat, and which don't pretend to be meat. You don't have to eat things which are meat-substitutes, which seems a lot like talking crap about Microsoft while still using Windows because "it's too strong a market force."
Plus, it seems like cheating to me. If you're going to make a sacrifice for something you believe in, then you should actually have to sacrifice something for that belief. What good is the person who tells his children not to smoke and then sneaks behind the shed for a drag? What morality is there in winning by a technical loophole?
"Oh, I'm not eating a bacon cheeseburger. I'm eating a tofurkey burger with fake bacon and cheese substitute. Because, you know, while I really oppose eating animals, i just like the taste of them too much to stop."
Mahatma Gandhi got an entire country to listen to him by engaging in ritual fasting until people worried about his health enough to listen to him. He didn't sneak a cheeseburger during bedtime and argue, "Well, religious harmony is really important to me, but I'm kind of hungry." The hippies of the 60s didn't hold sit-down protests except when they had class.
In order to affect change, you must sacrifice for your ideals. If you don't change your way of thinking about the world, then how can you change the world? How can you even argue that you have changed?
On top of all of this is the simple fact that meat substitutes taste bad. They taste about as close to the meats they're trying to mimic as Purple Drinks taste like grapes. Saag, on the other hand, tastes exactly like itself and it isn't meat, either.
"Oh, but it's so much harder," people will tell me, "to make tasty, nutritious meals that are not meat or meat-substitutes. It takes more time, it takes more effort."
Well, yeah. That's why meat became so popular in the first place, and to willfully ignore that while protesting it seems a charlatan's trick. it seems like avoiding the real issue.
I agree that meat has far too much prevalence in our society. I agree that there are many products which use animal byproducts when they don't have to. I also agree that I'd like my food to be made out of, you know, food.
But I think that if you're going to stop eating meat, then you should stop eating meat. if you think meat is something our culture can do without, if you think that we need to, as vegans are so fond of saying, "change our traditions," then how about we start with yours? How about you try to give up your dependance on meat-centric meal planning, give up trying to eat things with Egg Substitutes and Cheese Substitutes and Fake Meat Patties and actually try to stop eating the stuff?
If you're going to make a sacrifice, then it should cost you something. I don't see how you can argue any different.
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no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 00:47 (UTC)uhhh, because it's not a sacrifice. seriously.
eating a meat analog is nothing like eating an animal... there is no cheating in this!!! some veg*ns might get squicked out if something resembles meat/dairy, but that is their business.
personally, i have been vegetarian and vegan for so long that i do not remember what meat/dairy taste like! what these analogs provide me with is a variety of textures and flavors and the ability to recreate some comfort food (which is a picture in my mind, basically).
most people who become vegan or vegetarian do so to stop the suffering of animals. not because they don't like the taste of meat/dairy.... in general, we don't like the INDUSTRIES and the mindset that says that we should cause something else suffering and pain. therefore, as long as we do not support this culture of cruelty: it's okay.
i want people to find it easy to switch to vegan or vegetarian and therefore i want meat and dairy analogs to exist. u.s. culture is very meat/dairy heavy and people are tied to their cultural connections. therefore having meat analogs, or being like "tofu, mushrooms,seitan, whatever is a good replacement for meat on that dish" is a wonderful wonderful thing because it allows people to eat food they recognize while being cruel free. you should not underestimate how important cultural background is.
meat is not popular because it is convenient: it's almost always in history been a status symbol, only something the rich can afford (there's exceptions, but they are rare... mountainous countries for example).
meat analogs have also been around for at least 1500 years, when a chinese emperor became buddhist and vegetarian and instructed all his chefs to recreate things vegetarian style.
i agree that people should not eat so much processed foods (which is where the convenience comes in). but that's people in general, not just veg*ns. people who are veg*n are not ascetics!
now i'm going to eat my bbq seitan w/ peppers and then construct my awesome key lime pie!
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 00:54 (UTC)no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 01:34 (UTC)Your comment about "comfort foods" is very central to my current questions. This is precisely what I mean about sacrifice. I feel like if you're going to say that you shouldn't eat, say, chicken nuggets, then you should be prepared to give up eating them whole cloth. You shouldn't try to worm your way out of that with artificially chicken-flavored tofu nuggets.
I'm very aware of the importance of the cultural paradigm which makes this transition so hard for many people. It was the thought that started my mind churning to the point where this post was made. I grew up eating Indian food, though, so for me it's very easy to go through an entire meal without even knowing if I ate meat or not. This outsider perspective, so to speak, is why I challenge the notion of needing meat-like-patties between slices of bread (which I differentiate from things like Garden Patties, which make no attempt to mimic meat while still providing an analogous food experience).
I also acknowledge that meat, historically, was a status symbol, I don't feel that argument holds true anymore. I feel that most people think that throwing a couple of chicken legs in the oven is easier than say, making Tofu Pad Thai, and that this convienence is what drives the current domination of our eating habits. It seems easier to satisfy nutritional requirements through meat as well, as I know of a number of n00b vegans who have had nutritional problems during the transition. Part of that is culture, obviously, we're not taught what vegetables make up a complete balanced meal. But part of it is also market economics, as it's easier to transport frozen meat without losing saleable qualities.
I think the Chinese emperor thing is outside the scope of my question. In most chinese food, the meat constitutes a minor portion of the meal and can easily be swapped out (although, now that I think about it, I do feel the same sort of distaste for places like Zen Garden in Pittsburgh, which describes their entire menu by what meat each dish is mimicking).
You make a lot of good points, and I suspect that I'm going to reply to your comment again when I have time to process it more fully.
I've been talking about this stuff with (f)AD for a while. Meat has a certain cultural importance to me that I'm unwilling to give up, but I am interested in eating less chemically treated food. The two phrases that I keep saying are, "I want my food to be made out of food," and "I think that if you're going to give up meat, you should actually give it up." Conscious consumerism, she's refered to it as. Much like she wonders if she would have had more support had she chosen abortion over adoption, I feel like there aren't many resources I can find that would help me learn more about choosing my food more carefully without also trying to indoctrinate me into a philosophy I don't agree with (not just veg*ns, but also the Indians I've talked to who spent the entire excursion telling me that I was a Bad Hindu because I like Indian food, but don't participate in Indian culture).
I'm particularly glad that you commented (I didn't even know you still read my LJ), because I've always heard good things about your eating/culinary habits. About an hour or so before I finally posted, I was actually thinking that if you were still in Chicago, I could probably have asked you to go shopping with me on occassion, that you are one of the few people I think would have been willing to help me learn without preaching to me, unlike the few people I've already approached.
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 02:23 (UTC)swap out animals for humans there and you got me. while some people it is more of something they do feel like they are making a bit of a sacrifice, for me it really isn't a sacrifice. it's just not something i would want. trust me on this.
i also like the car analogy below. i will never own a car. this is no sacrifice for me.
also making subsititues *is* exploring culinary range. i dare you to find someone who has a wider range of cuisine types and tastes in and out of the kitchen than i. there is no value in their product for me; however, that doesn't mean there is no value in making alternatives to that product available so people can opt out of the cruelty part.
there is no "worming my way out" by eating fake chicken nuggets. they're vegan, i'm vegan. they're not healthy, but i don't eat healthily 100% of the time. those are two different things that i think you're confusing.
this is going to be a bit overwraught, but: having rape fantasies is not at all the same thing as wanting to be raped. eating fake meat is not the same as eating meat.
when you buy fake meat stuff you are opting out. you are putting your money into things that are not meat creating more of a demand for those things and less of a demand for meat. that is a good thing (to me).
when i realized i thought eating meat was wrong i had grown up eating kraft mac and cheese, taco bell, little ceasars, mcdonalds, etc. So instead I had subway w/ no meat, taco bell bean burritos, french fries, nachos, etc. 5 years later, after i discover things such as vegetables and other non- "american" cuisines, i became vegan. so i was one of those people who wasn't too healthy going in, but you learn how to cook and then become amazing or you shell out more money for prepackaged veg stuff. now i'm a food snob, but not everyone is and not everyone has the skills to cook the way i do. it's really easy to eat healthily and veg*n and not w/ much cooking time, but we aren't taught stuff, like you said... but that's not the veg*n's fault.
making tofu pad thai is not like throwing a couple chicken legs in... you are comparing apples and oranges. it's like making chicken pad thai... the equivalant would to throw some tofu and veggies in the oven totally uncut or anything... which is both easy and yummy!
don't try to hold up veg*ns to any higher standard than anyone else (except for them adhering to their beliefs of not eating animals and/or animal products). veg*ns are a good cross-section of the populace. not all are freaks or really counter cultural by any means. not all want to be healthy.
a lot of people want to not be so conspicuous about their beliefs in their day to day life and things like meat analogs help them. goodness knows how many questions i get sometimes, but sometimes even i want to be left alone. i don't want to always have to defend being vegan, being queer, wearing all black, liking country music, not drinking/smoking, etc. sometimes we just want to be.
occassionally fitting in with whomever is around you is something we all do, some more or less. meat analogues are something that not only makes veg*nism more palatable to the mainstream (yes, i want veg*nism to "sell out" (although not in the giving up one's beliefs way)) but just help us leave more "normal" lives (whatever that is) when we want to.
i don't even like prepackaged meat subs all that much (although made from scratch meat subs are usually always divine), but i can't stress to you enough how this is not a real concern or question for veg*ns.
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 03:02 (UTC)By analogy then...
If I were to stop being a cannibal, because I felt it was wrong to eat humans, but made up dishes that looked like my favorite cooked human recipes (and tasted like them), then that would be the same as a vegetarian/vegan who made up dishes that look/taste like meat dishes.
Assuming one is vegetarian/vegan for moral reasons and not health reasons, of course.
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 05:06 (UTC)no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 05:12 (UTC)now giving up all sweets, black clothes, or books... well, those would be sacrifices to me.
no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 11:50 (UTC)no subject
Date: 24 Jun 2006 14:18 (UTC)seriously, no sacrifice *for me*.
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 07:06 (UTC)Not to completely sidetrack this, but, uh, who are you?
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 10:01 (UTC)no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 07:12 (UTC)It's becoming startlingly clear to me through our conversation that I have no understanding of the veg*ns [ (f)AD just explained what the * means a few days ago ] who I admire for their style of conscientious consumerism.
You make a lot of good points, again, far too many for me to fully digest even in the few days I've given myself to do so.
Right now, the primary thought in my mind is that, clearly, I've been asking the wrong sort of people these questions up until now, and that explains a great deal of the frustration that I've been having.
I'd like to ask for permission to email you privately about specific culinary attempts I'll be making in the future, and for links & resources (or maybe even direct answers) about understanding ingredient labels.
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 16:19 (UTC)also, sorry i forgot to explain the veg*n thing... (it's when you want to say vegan and vegetarian and don't want to say those over and over)
no subject
Date: 26 Jun 2006 18:12 (UTC)That's a really, really thin analogy, unless he used to eat humans, and live in a culture where most dishes were made from people.
Seriously, not being able to eat entrees in 90% of American restaurants is a HUGE sacrifice, at least for most people
to your actual question
Date: 24 Jun 2006 02:45 (UTC)however, one thing you can bring from it is that the lower you eat on the food chain the more sustainable it is. (although be careful about seafood due to mercury... you can look at this (http://www.wcs.org/gofish) which should help inform you what is safe or not... but then again, thinking low on the food chain helps there as well).
think of joining a csa or going to the farmer's market (http://www.supernaturale.com/articles.html?id=161) to get organic, local veggies. buying locally is equally important (perhaps more so) than buying organic. csa's and farmer's markets will help you do that... those places will also have organic and more humane cheese and meat vendors usually.
if you are concerned about healthy, try not to eat at restaurants a lot because they add a lot of salt and fat to their food to make it super yummy. also making sure you eat a lot of raw food and not just cooked food is also good for you.
while i wish everyone could go vegan or at least vegetarian, i realize that's not going to happen since for most people it's not wrong to do so ( though there are lots of good environmental reasons too (http://www.earthsave.org/environment/foodchoices.htm)... also a study is going to come out soon that says giving up meat is one of the best ways to reduce your environmental footprint (http://www.onedayvancouver.ca/news.php?type=1&id=116)... this is not a preaching thing, but just some reasons it's good besides the animal ethics part of it).
Re: to your actual question
Date: 26 Jun 2006 07:16 (UTC)Could you recommend some places to check out? I don't know how long you were living in Edgewater before you moved, but I'm sure you must know some places. The phrase "humane cheese" is something I'm particularly interested in, although for tangential reasons.
Re: to your actual question
Date: 26 Jun 2006 16:24 (UTC)couple of thoughts there.